Transcript of the interview with Jorge Soto (Ananda Lab) at Spannabis 2018 :
We’re with Jorge Soto, director of Ananda Lab, a project that began about 4 years ago, but Jorge has more than 20 in the cannabis sector. How are you, Jorge?
- Very good. Here enjoying Spannabis, the best event in Europe today for both medicinal and recreational cannabis, I spend a few days seeing friends, clients, future clients, collaborators and enjoying all this, thanks to God we have the opportunity to live in this country, which until recently seemed that the "stoners" had to stay locked up at home and hideaway…
So, you’re in your element here.
- Yes, yes, stupendous. Happier every year.
First of all: Tell me what is Ananda Labs, is it a laboratory? Is it a consultancy? Is it a bit of everything? What are you up toat Ananda?
- Well, basically we’re a group of people that have a common love for this plant, and we each have a specialty. I’m sort of the one who does a bit of everything, from cultivation to industrial hemp, medicinal cannabis knowledge, then we have our analytical specialist which is obviously the main activity of the group. We’re dedicated to analytical and quality control of cannabinoid products for both industrial hemp farmers and CBD producers. We also work with pharmaceutical companies, universities, research products, we have some collaboration with non-profit entities to do a little bit of quality control of what is dispensed in the Spanish dispensaries, which, although obviously a lot of the people who see us are involved in this world and know that there are dispensaries where you can buy or acquire cannabis, there are other people who don’t know about them, and so through this non-profit project we try to direct people towards these dispensaries to treat their ailments, or simply for recreational consumption, so they can be more aware of what they’re consuming and can have something of “proven quality" within reach...
It’s not the same as knowing that you are drinking, let’s see, a coca-cola that has 300 calories, compared to a coca-cola light that doesn’t have any. And any product for human consumption that we have in our fridge, in our house, has a label, quality control, an awareness of the product that to this day we don't have with cannabis, and so through our different initiatives, both in business with pharmaceuticals and developers and industrial hemp growers, as well as in our non-profit initiative to work with clubs and people from dispensaries.
Exactly. Because when we started, 20 years ago, you knew what THC was, but mainly because you sampled it, this is stronger, this isn’t strong… by how it made us feel. Now it is practically impossible for a bank to release a variety without having not only a cannabinoid analysis, but also terpenes, right?
- The whole subject of cannabis breeding, usually way back, people talked about the cannabis breeder as if he was so eminent and the one who knew the most… a guru who chose his plant A and had kept it for many years and with it and another one he made some varieties, nowadays it is not so much "this guy is a geek", it’s one more type of knowledge, of genetics and breeding, as with other plants and all these activities that have some tools behind them when they are done professionally, which were not used in cannabis.
It is normal, in tomatoes if you look for example at the percentages of lycopene in a tomato, this is data that the breeder is interested in… so it’s normal that in cannabis you look at the cannabinoids, which are the active ingredients. Also, as you say, 20 years ago we said THC, THC…we thought that the THC was what made you high, that there was nothing else. Then we learned that CBD also existed, then we thought that the CBD was what made you sleepy. Then the scientists told us that it doesn’t make you sleepy, that it simply has some medicinal properties and a modulating effect on the THC that makes your perception of the psychoactive experience very different, it even cancels it out in some cases.
Well all this kind of information is very important, and today with the terpenes, which is what you said, the aromatic molecules, because recently no one knew what a terpene was. Two years ago, it was clear to everyone that what caused the smell and the characteristic flavour of our favourite cannabis strains were these substances that are terpenes, but nowadays we know they have tremendous importance in both the psychoactive experience and the effects and medicinal properties of cannabis plants.
Yes. You were saying in the conference that Cheese for example, the clone of UK Cheese, I think, which was a variety that we all thought was very powerful, was between 15% and 18% THC. And now we have varieties with 30% THC, which are really potent, no?
- Yes, that’s correct.
These modulators, the entourage effect with CBD and other cannabinoids, and the terpenes, are what gives one this experience right?
- Absolutely. Absolutely, in fact you’re talking about the Cheese that I mentioned in the talk. The UK Cheese, the famous Exodus clone, everyone’s tried it, 16% THC. There are people who tell you that they can only smoke Cheese at night to get to sleep.
The sedative effect of cannabis that is known today, comes mostly from the CBN, which is a product of degradation by oxidation and other types of processes that THC can undergo and become CBN, it’s what makes us sleepy, so maybe it’s the influence of THC that people thought "no, I'm going to sleep because this..." Well, no, it should make you sleepy because it has CBN, but CBN?… it has the same CBN as another variety, the same percentage of THC, will degrade to the same amount of CBN. Why does it make you so sleepy? Could not it be that the terpenes have made you relax?
In aromatherapy, there are a lot of people who have aromatherapy massages, and maybe there are people who think that you are strange because you say: "the aromas have an effect". Not only the aromas, but the colours too! So, they put you in a room with red walls and effectively, you climb the walls… they paint it blue and you’re relaxed. The aromas and a lot of things have an effect on our plant and on us and, so, in the end it’s good to study it, to know the role of each element, its synergies, what effects of each one are increased by the effects of another. Because what happens is maybe you have a substance that is relaxing and when you mix it with another, the relaxing effect does not add up but multiplies.
And in cannabis all this kind of science is… is still, let's say it in a colloquial language, still in nappies. There are many studies, there are some studies that suddenly come out and that contradict the others, and really I think we should all evolve and know more about the plant, to have verified data to offer producers, farmers, a tool to enable them to offer more information to their clients and to be more sure of their product, and to give this industry an image of real seriousness, like in other areas, and perhaps because we have been ostracised, because before it was something unthinkable in this world, but it can be done, it is within our reach, there are a lot of scientists, a lot of people who are pushing for this to continue and… the science of cannabis is a reality today.
We’re not just 4 geeks saying that this is a medicine and that each cannabinoid has its properties. There are a lot of substances within cannabis and there are many that are of great interest, not only from a recreational point of view but medicinal, and it is very important that there are studies that look at these things because it can benefit many people.
Okay, also talking about analytics, you were talking about many components, but one thing that you said at the conference and that I think is very important, and we also have to take into account, is the analysis of heavy metals, pesticides, How do we grow? Where do we grow it? Do we want medicinal cannabis?
Yes, but we need to know that there’s no mercury, that there are no harmful products, right? Do they ask for this when you do analysis for clubs, seed banks, laboratories?
- We’ve had several stages in the laboratory. As I said in the talk, we made a lot of efforts to try to collaborate with non-profit entities, with Associations, in this area of quality control focused more on product safety, but maybe it was too early, the Industry was not ready when we tried, we didn't have the reception we expected.
It is also necessary to understand that this isn’t obligatory, that this type of entity sometimes has one thing, sometimes another… they’re often quite disorganised. I believe that the evolution of the industry in these 3 years has arrived at a point where possibly now, if we try to move, there are more people aware of this kind of thing, which in the end is positive for them because it has a positive effect on the image of the industry, it’s positive for their patients because it has a positive effect on their health and I believe that now it’s going to be more accepted, and that bit by bit it will be become compulsory, I don’t know if from the legal standpoint, but from the moral point of view of course.
Well, if we like to eat organic tomatoes and organic lettuces… the same with cannabis, no?
- Of course. Now there’s a trend of going to carrefour to pay 5 times more for a tomato because they guarantee that they have not sprayed a pesticide that gives you 4 arms, 3 legs and makes you fly… how are we not going to have the same for a product that we’re not only consuming, but we’re also burning and inhaling?
It’s something that I always repeat, this is a product for human consumption, but it’s a product for human consumption but that is smoked, which is even worse. That is, we must be very clear that any product that we consume smoked is already harmful to our body, because we are smoking, breathing smoke and it’s not good, and if this product has a series of components, be they toxic metals, pesticide residues in amounts that are not safe, it’s very good to know what we’re exposing ourselves to, to make the decision if we want to consume this or something else…
Me, I think it’s very important. Jorge, thank you very much for your time, thank you very much for telling us about analytics and about cannabis in particular, till next time.
- My pleasure. Many thanks.
A pleasure.
